You know what? I agree with this graphic, which I found on an internet atheism community.
Sadly, there are people of faith who try to be “good” because of the threat of eternal damnation. I kinda feel sorry for them; they must feel pressured, hounded and even miserable.
That said, does this mean they are really “bad” people who are just trying to avoid being separated from God for eternity? Perhaps.
But let’s move on to the vast, vast majority of those who follow Jesus of Nazareth (who many people believe is God’s divine Son). For them, this graphic is as wrong as a snowstorm in July.
Indeed, for me and pretty much every Jesus follower I know, the threat of “eternal damnation” has nothing to do with our desire to be a “good person”. (And what qualifies as good? I address it in The Problem With ‘Good’: http://wp.me/p2wzRb-7j).
The want to be a good person comes because:
- God wants us to be good
- God has put his spirit inside us to help us be good
- God wants to work through us to make this broken world a better place – and we’re not much use to Him when we’re only trying to be good to avoid “eternal torture”.
- God offers everyone the gift of Jesus to guide us with His words, His sacrifice on a Roman cross (to make up for all the bad things we’ve done and the good things we’ve failed to do), and His resurrection. Jesus followers have accepted that gift, so we want to be worthy of all that we believe Jesus has done for us.
Here’s the thing: God offers everyone, including YOU, that gift of Jesus. All you have to do is accept it. Simply pray that you’re sorry for how you’ve fallen short of what God wants for you and, from now on, you want to accept Jesus as your lord and saviour – the man whose sacrifice makes up for how you’ve fallen short. Welcome that gift into your life.
Then, if you’re serious about what you’ve done, start reading original-source Jesus biographies (there are four, in total). Find a church and start attending. If that church doesn’t work for you, find another.
This process may seem tiresome, but it’s crucially important because when you’re surrounded by others who are serious about following Jesus, God can and will work through them to help YOU on your journey. And, just as cool, God can and will work through you to help them on their journeys.
Trust me, as someone who has been used by God for His mysterious, amazing purposes, there’s no feeling like it!
Does this make sense? Yes or no, post your thoughts below and let’s have a conversation.
It makes perfect sense. God will use us for His purposes when we accept Jesus and are open to His will for our lives. Being “good”, or at least attempting to be, is the natural fall-out from our loving relationship with a Father who understands us and wants to draw us closer to Him.
Blessings, Frank!
Good thoughts, Martha. Thanks for contributing. 🙂
May I discuss this on my twitter feed?
Of course you can. Thanks! 🙂
Maybe this is “off topic”, but as a follower of Jesus Christ, do you not believe that there is a (or is going to be) Hell? Eternal Damnation? I guess I am looking for thoughts, opinions and/or beliefs that are different from those of my entire family and what I was raised to believe in church, which has been pounded over & over in my brain. It is an unbending “truth” that I’ve grown up believing in.
Although, the constant reminder of “eternal damnation” is not what has made me be a “good” person. The values and morals taught by my parents, even outside of the church, is what has made me, well, me! A big-hearted girl, who tries to be as Christ-Like as possible.
Peace and God Bless!
Pamela, you ask a very good question. I’m not sure what ‘eternal damnation’ looks like; what I do know is that all people have a choice of where they spend eternity. God does not make that choice; people do, by the bad things they do, the good things they fail to do, and the refusal to accept the gift of Jesus Christ. It saddens me….. 😦
Thank you, Frank, for accepting my comment and commenting back. You are so right on all points. We are to be our “Brother’s Keeper” and so it saddens me as well to see so many who do not Believe.
I decided, long ago, to not torment my child with the threat of Hell, or “Eternal Fire” as my family describes it. I tried to empower him with the choice of accepting Jesus Christ as his Savior (which he has, hallelujah!) and to follow His teachings. Also to try and be a good model of a person for him daily, (sometimes fail, as we are not perfect).
I would truly love to spend eternity with my son and family, as I am sure we all would. 🙂
Be Blessed!
Frank, in your comment to Pamela you say “all people have a choice of where they spend eternity”. Now, you know that I’m not a believer but even when I was, I did not want to spend eternity in any place. I want to be dead, gone, away, nothing, “the long sleep”. Why doesn’t your god give people that choice?
And as for the Meme, be glad that they are a good person. The reason for being good does not matter, as long as they are good.
Wilko, I can’t answer your question. No one on this planet can.
But I can write this: He’s not “my” god. As a serious Christian, I believe He’s EVERYONE’S God. Whether they like it or not.
So he is pushy too. I don’t want live on after my death, but apparently he does not allow me to make that choice. And now he claims (well, you do) to be my god as well. But I like Thor better…..
Wilko, if you want to believe God is “pushy”, then go ahead. However, I can’t for a moment see how that’s going to improve your life or make you happier.
Because it isn’t making my life better in any way, how could it, I don’t even believe a god exists.
But for people that do believe in a god, it may be important to know that he/she/it does not want you decide what happens after your death, and does not allow you to choose another god, even if you like the other one better.
I’ll leave it at that, we both know each others opinion. 🙂
Oh, one more thing, you never reacted to this:
Just be glad that they are a good person, whatever the reason.
Haven’t read all of the comments yet, but this post while making some decent points, seems to miss a huge point, or the biggest point. The message of the Bible is that there are no one is a “good person.” It isn’t about the threat of eternal damnation, it is about the fact that so far only one good person has ever lived and He took the punishment for the rest of us, but truly no one else is good. So this meme has a hint of irony in that it doesn’t get the point of the message at all. The point of the Bible is that there are no good people at all. So regardless of eternal damnation, you certainly need a savior from the fact that you are not good, even if you think you are! (Not you personally, you collectively.)
“The point of the Bible is that there are no good people at all”
Which is another good reason to dismiss it. All people are born good, most remain good people throughout their lives, some don’t.
What is “good”? And how good is good enough?
Let’s turn that around, what is “bad”? And when is one “bad” enough to be rejected at the gate of heaven?
Let’s not. Let’s stick with my questions, since I asked first and to “turn that around” is to avoid answering.
Okay, I go first 🙂 But the question remains.
In my opinion everyone is born completely innocent (good). And if you live your life helping other people as much as you can I will call it good. Some can help more than others, because of wealth, intelligence or other means. Live your life a well as you can without being a nuisance for others, don’t force your ideas upon others. Don’t make other people’s lives less enjoyable. In short, “don’t be a dick” (Stolen from Wil Wheaton)
That’s good enough.
Thanks for your take. Please keep in mind, it’s still *your take*. It’s like holding up a glass of water riddled with ecoli. It looks clear and ready to drink, but one sip and you become sick.
What is “bad”? For a serious Christian, bad is not living up to God’s standard of perfection. That means everyone who refuses the gift of Jesus Christ (whom serious Christians, and many others, believe is God’s divine son), falls short of God’s standard.
I don’t know what happens to those people when they die. I do know, however, that everyone who accepts Christ, and His sacrifice, is seen by God as perfect like Jesus.
I don’t get the “glass of water”….
As you know I think that there is no such thing as a god, so I cannot live up to it’s standards. I also cannot refuse the gift of Jesus as… well you know. By your definition, this all makes me “bad”, doesn’t it? Do you consider me “bad”?
I think that when people die, they die.
Wilko, this essay explains the “glass of water” metaphor: http://wp.me/p2wzRb-7j
And since you’re an atheist person, and Frank’s Cottage is meant for people who are open to spirituality, I’m not sure why you’re bothering to read or comment here.
About the glass of water metaphor: Let’s take two well known people from the past, Pol Pot and Albert Einstein. Both will have had “defects” but no doubt you will think of mr. Pol Pot as a bad person and consider mr. Albert Einstein good. (I can not think of anything he did wrong). So they both contained “ecoli” but only one of them turned out to be a bad guy.
Why I’m here? To learn. Learn how other people think, what they think, how they live, I’m curious. Just as you Frank, I think I remember seeing your name in atheist google+ communities. 🙂
And for some reason, sometimes I get a message when you / someone posts something new here.
I am sorry I never came back, I didn’t know anyone had responded to my comment. Re-reading my comment I would have changed a few words in there. But regardless of all that. Wilko, you believe you are good, but will you attest that you are not perfect? The standard is perfection, and not one single human being (other than Jesus Christ) has lived a life of perfection. At some point you have thought an evil thought or done something that wasn’t good. Even as a child you might have grabbed a toy from another child, you might have been unwilling to share. I am certain if you reflect upon yourself as an adult you can find that not everything you do is “good,” “perfect,” “righteous” by everyone’s standards. So something you have done offends or bothers someone else for sure. Most likely you have harmed someone emotionally if nothing else (perhaps not ever, but most likely). So no, not one person is perfect. As a Christian (follower of Jesus Christ), I don’t fear eternal damnation because I know that Jesus Christ paid the price for my imperfections and outright sins. I don’t have a problem admitting that I am not a good person, according to your definition I probably am a good person, but to me (and “my” God) I know that I am not a good person. Starting with the ten commandments and not even looking at all the laws in the Torah, I know that I am not a good person. Would a perfect, blameless person covet that which others have, I did many times. Sometimes, I used it positively to attain certain goals, but it is still wrong to covet, it is less than perfect. You may not believe in God, but that doesn’t make Him any less real. You don’t even have to believe in Him, to accept Jesus into your heart. I am not under any threat of eternal damnation and that is the point. I am not trying to be “good” to avoid damnation. Jesus paid the price for my sins, that is justice and mercy rolled into one. I don’t think I am really any more “good” than I was before accepting Jesus into my heart, although I do see positive changes in my desires and my willingness to put others ahead of my own needs and wants because of what Jesus did for me. And because of the supernatural changes that come in your life once you accept Jesus. You not believing in something doesn’t make it any less real, just means that you think it is not real. God does not force himself upon you, He gave you free will, He gave you a choice.
@Frank. I hope you don’t mind me answering Pumpkin. You know why I ask.
@Pumpkin. No I’m not perfect, not by a long shot. Yes I have done stupid things, yes, I have made errors. But on the whole, I really think I’m a nice guy. I help where and when I can. I try not to be a nuisance to anyone although the mother of my friend will disagree :-). (as I’m not married I will not call her my mother in law) And yes, I guess that you are a nice guy too.
But your claim that the standard is perfection and that only one person has achieved that is an empty claim for me, as I do not think he exists or never has existed. So why would I compare myself or anyone else to … what, who? I can compare myself to other people that do or did exist, and I see that most people, including me are doing quite well. I’m no Malala Yousafzai, nor Desmond Tutu nor, Warren Buffet. But I’m no George W. Bush or Pope Ratzinger either. Just an ordinary guy that tries to live his life as well as he can.
Then you say that the fact that I do not believe in a god does not make him any less real, I’d say that the fact that you believe in a god does not make him real. Maybe I once believed in the tooth fairy, that didn’t make her real, did it?
So I’m not under the threat of eternal damnation either, there is no one, nothing to do the threatening. After I die, I’m dead.
And just the fact that a god would threaten anyone with eternal damnation makes it very unlikely that he exists. Absolutely no sane person would condemn anyone for doing anything with *eternal* damnation. Saying such a thing sounds like something an angry, bad ruler would say to his nationals, but it certainly does not sound god-like.
About sin, Frank once found a meme in an atheist community that sums it up quite nicely, Sin is an imaginary disease that was invented to sell you an imaginary cure. The imaginary hero from two millenia years ago does not have to rid me of this imaginary disease.
Yes, I have free will, yes I have a choice. I choose reality. I know that you wil say “my reality”. And you are right, it’s my reality, the one that there is proof for.
You may in fact be a very nice person. I am friends with quite a few nonChristians (Jews, Muslims, atheists), who are very nice people. And as I said, I am pretty sure if we met you would consider me pretty nice, too. I am a woman not a guy, though. The existence of Jesus Christ passes all the historical tests that historians use to detail other great historical figures and their lives, so I choose to accept that he lived just as I do a vast number of historical figures whom I have not even met. You can certainly say to me that my believing in God doesn’t make Him real, and I am fine with that.
The supernatural is something I can certainly not deny, based on that which I have seen and experienced, just the same as I cannot deny the fact that water is H2O because of science experiments all the way back in middle school. Perhaps my interpretation of these events is entirely wrong, but then I defer to the authority of greater, more intelligent people who have gone before me (just as we all do on many issues). I also research a matter greatly before deciding on it. My research and looking to authority has led me to the conclusion that God does exist. So much of the scientific research I have read tends to point not only to creation, but also to much of the information in the Bible being true. I am sure you feel the same about your research.
But none of that changes the fact that this meme is a completely false idea, as it is not a christian principle to do good to avoid eternal damnation. Christianity teaches that we are free of eternal damnation based on a choice to accept Jesus, not that any doing good could free us from the justice our wrongs deserve. And again, Christianity does teach that perfection is the standard to measure oneself against.
As far as sin being an imaginary disease, the word sin means an immoral act, so are you saying there is no such thing as an immoral act? I often hear atheists argue that they can have morality without having God, well then if you have morality than you also have immoral acts a.k.a. sins. Also, there is no more or less proof for your reality than there is for mine. I have just as much proof for my reality as you do for yours, science has not proven that God does or does not exist, but it has proven a large number of events in the Bible (such as the plaques in Egypt). However, you judge me for my reality, even though by your definition I would be considered a good person. You assume I am stupid or crazy because I have physically, mentally, spiritually, and educationally experienced and accepted the existence of God. The meme assumes that because I am Christian, and do believe that Hell (eternal separation from my God) exists that I do good to avoid Hell, which is not the case. It also assumes that I define good a certain way, which I do not.
Likely, you will call this a strawman, so rather than say what I am hearing loud and clear in your statement, I will ask it as a question. You stated, “And just the fact that a god would threaten anyone with eternal damnation makes it very unlikely that he exists.” When I read that I question that you are saying, “If a God existed he wouldn’t be a God of justice?” Are you saying that no god would be a god of justice, a god wouldn’t feel we should have some payment for our wrongs?
@Pumpkin.
First, I’m not an historian and I have never myself investigated the sources of the bible, nor any other holy books. But as far as I remember there is no mention of Jesus in the first few centuries after his supposed life and death. Now I do know that the human memory is a strange thing, you remember some things well and others not good at all, That’s one of the reasons why the (eye)witness of anything must, and is, taken with a grain of salt. Here there are not just a few days but tens if not hundred of years between the acts and the writing down of them. I’ll leave it at that.
What you mean with supernatural I do not know. Anything I have seen and experienced can be explained without it. And while there are things in nature that are not explained (e.g. dark matter), work is being done to remedy that.
I did not do any research to find out if a god does or does not exist. It simply is not necessary for me to do so. There is no need for any god, it is not logical for one to exist. We do not know everything that is there in the universe and I can live with that. It makes it only more interesting, trying to find out.
About the meme, why do you claim it is false? If you really need some kind of future punishment to become a nice person. And without that you would not care to be one, I wouldn’t call you nice.
If by sin you mean any immoral act, sin exists. But it usually is only used in some religious way. Such as “having sex before marriage”. That kind of sin is imaginary as far as I’m concerned.
Where it comes to proof, there is a never ending dispute about proving or disproving the existence of anything. To me it is as simple as this, as long as the is no proof that something exists, I can ignore it. Or as Hitchens stated, “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”
I assume nothing about you, except that you are a nice woman (sorry that I thought you were a guy). Because that’s the way I always do with people I do not know anything about. Until proven otherwise, you are an intelligent, nice person.
Your question is a bit difficult for me to understand (my first language isn’t English). What I meant to say is that no one, no person, no god, absolutely no one, would punish anyone for *eternity*, for doing something wrong that did not last for ever. And certainly not for “not believing in him, it, or something”
For me the question about what a god would or would no do, of course is without meaning, what would the tooth fairy or a flying pink elephant do is the same question.