At first I was reluctant to interact with this atheist person, who was commenting on a Frank’s Cottage essay (and the graphic to the left), and you’ll realize it in my initial responses. All too often, I’ve been disappointed to find that people who believe there is no God simply want to score points and win debates over people they look down on.
But Jill was different and when I realized it, we ended up having a good conversation. Read on and see if you agree with me:
Jill: I think the topic of sin is interesting. From my perspective, the graphic is meant to show that in order to sell the “cure”, you have to make people believe they are sick, right?
Pharmaceutical companies have figured out the same thing. They want to sell more drugs. What better way to sell more drugs than to convince people through commercials that they might have a whole list of diseases which they pitch all over media. And by reinforcing the sin/sick concept over and over it keeps people flocking back to church or to their doctors for the cure.
I believe there is a big difference between the word ‘sin’ and words like ‘mistake’, ‘error’, etc. They are not interchangeable.
Frank: Thanks, Jill. Guess it’s a matter of perspective.
Jill: Isn’t sin the hook which churches use to keep people returning each week? Christianity is based upon original sin.
Frank: Perhaps that’s the perspective of some non-Christians….
Jill: I really resent watching people being told they are broken. I sometimes wonder if there is any data to link religiosity to depression. There is no perfect standard by which we should be judged.
Frank: Yes, your resentment would be expected in the non-believing world. And for me as a follower of Jesus Christ, there absolutely is a perfect standard by which we should be judged.
Jill: Do you ever feel depressed to be compared to a perfect standard for which you will never meet?
Frank: Nope, I never feel depressed about that. Because Jesus of Nazareth is my lord and savior, God sees me as He sees Jesus: perfect, without a single blemish. 🙂
Jill: I’m glad to read that, Frank. It makes me feel a little better. But why sin then? If God sees you as he sees Jesus, why is sin such an important part of Christianity?
Frank: Great questions! Why sin? Because of the gift of freewill. Serious Jesus followers believe God knew this would be the result of giving us freewill, but He did it anyway because He wanted (and wants) a REAL relationship with real people, rather than goose-stepping robots.
Serious Jesus followers believe sin is important because in the end, it’s a rejection of God. It’s telling Him we know better than Him how to live our lives. And thousands of years of history have shown how horribly wrong this is.
In addition, serious Jesus followers believe God is perfect and cannot stand the sin that all human beings commit. But rather than condemn us all, we believe God sent His son as a gift to everyone who wishes to accept the gift. And that gift (a) clears away the sin and (b) strengthens us to see our sin clearly and avoid it more in the future.
Jill: But he’s God, for goodness sake. He could have created perfect beings, couldn’t he? He could have created goose-stepping robots if he wanted to, correct?
Instead, he created humans with flaws, which he already knows about because he’s omniscient. Then he grows frustrated with them and causes great harm to many. Whose fault is that?
Frank: Yes, He could have created perfect beings who were in perfect relationship with Him. And it would be a real as a TV “reality” show.
Serious Jesus followers believe the viewpoint that humans are made in God’s image. That means the emotions we experience are the emotions He experiences. Pain, frustration, anger, joy, etc. Goose-stepping robots would be as useless to Him as they would be to us.
Jill: How do you know those are the emotions God experiences? How do you tell the difference between real emotions as God experiences them and human emotions which humans project upon God? Couldn’t “in His image” be just a physical descriptor? Or a metaphor for something else?
Frank: I know these are the emotions God experiences because the Bible – which serious Jesus followers trust as absolutely reliable – depicts God with those emotions.
In addition, I guess “in His image” could be a physical descriptor because we all resemble Jesus – human beings with two arms and two legs and a face that expresses every emotion known to humans.
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So, what do you think? Is the idea of ‘sin’ — and the way to escape the prison it creates for every person on this earth — more real to you now? And what about that ‘escape’? Do you want to know more about it? Type your thoughts below and let’s have a conversation.
Frank's Cottage 
That was a most sincere and civilized dialogue you had with Jill. She poses good questions and you posed amazing answers to all of them. Non-believers do have a difficult time with the concept of sin, but I think you just might have had quite the impact on her in a positive way.
Blessings, Frank!
Thanks for the kind words, Martha. I told Jill that among atheist people, she’s one of the good ones. 🙂
Frank, I take it that you do not believe in evolution, that there was a global flood, and all the rest of it. How do you personally square that with what science says?
My mind is not made up about evolution, since there are examples of where it has not happened like pro-evolutionists claim. Whatever my take on it is, I don’t see how it has any effect on my faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe you can explain that for me.
Frank, clearly I cannot tell you how it works in your mind. My curiosity was simply in trying to understand how you understand the facts of science in light of blind faith.
I’d be interested in learning more about these “… examples of where evolution has not happened like pro-evolutionists claim.”
There are lots of examples. Please explore for yourself on the Internet, perhaps starting with the Burgess Shale fossils.
And I’m still waiting for an explanation as to how the evolution question has even the slightest impact on my faith in Jesus Christ…..
P.S. I’m very thankful that it’s not “blind” faith, as many people often claim. It’s reasonable faith mixed with historic fact. If it was “blind” faith, I wouldn’t be part of it.
The reason that I asked for a bit more information is that there is a ton of information about evolution and a general search for your generic description would never have gotten me to the Burgess Shale fossils. That is at least one point we can talk about because I’m having trouble finding anyone that thinks this collection is problematic for evolution? That it changed thinking abo8ut evolution is hardly a surprise. Science tends to wait till there is credible evidence before changing its thinking or theories. Specifically how do you think this is a case of evolution not working out as expected?
The question of evolution and other science facts brings into question the veracity of the very book that you rely on to know about your god. If you remain faithful in light of facts and evidence which shows your ‘historical’ evidence to be false and the scientific record to be true, well, no matter as you’ve already said you would not be part of it.
Religions and gods have changed over the years. Even YHWH through the man-god Jesus has changed his tune just a bit or so modern Christianity would show us. YHWH never railed against slavery (far from it) nor did he ever even suggest anything like gender equality (far from it) yet modern Christianity shuns both slavery and gender inequality if you listen to the more liberal sects. Jewish scholars have already admitted that there is zero evidence for the exodus which brings into question alot of what that book could mean historically.
Evolution is but one area where current knowledge conflicts with the Christian holy texts and in a way as to strongly indicate that one or the other is wrong.
And yet once again, my request for information about why the entire evolution debate should have any effect on my faith in Jesus Christ remains unanswered.
You keep talking about other stuff, mostly in the Old Testament, and avoiding my point.
In addition, this essay is not about the things that atheist people want to steer it to. It’s about the puzzle of sin.
Frank, my mistake. I thought I was being clear, I guess I need to be more so.
If the holy texts of Christianity fall flat like a poorly built house of cards then your faith in Jesus Christ is blind faith in a myth. Science and biblical scholars are showing us where the OT and NT are in error and cannot be literally true.
Evolution puts creationism squarely in the box labeled myths. Without creationism there is no original sin. Without original sin what was Jesus doing hanging on the cross? How is a myth supposed to save you from a fictional Hell created by the person that offers you salvation?
Is that more clear?
If there are a few parts of the Bible that are meant to be taken metaphorically (such as the story of Job), I’m fine with that.
Now then. I have done wrong and failed to do right. Jesus of Nazareth, who many people believe is the Son of God, is offered as a gift to everyone willing to accept that gift. Accepting that gift, and declaring Jesus to be your lord and saviour, covers over those moral crimes with His perfection.
Everyone has committed moral crimes, whether they believe it or not. And Jesus is offered as a gift to everyone. The only thing that’s needed is for people to accept that gift.
I wouldn’t be surprised if atheist people consider Jesus to be a silly myth. And that’s their choice (thanks to the gift of freewill, provided by their — and your — creator). I’m grateful when atheist people read Frank’s Cottage, but it was never meant for them. It’s written for people who are open to spirituality.
And yet, the bulk of your posts are all about denigrating atheism in one form or another.
Why is this?
There’s a tremendous difference between denigrating and disagreeing. Please check out Facebook atheism communities and you’ll instantly see what i mean.